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	<title>Comments on: Virtual Hardware 7 Bug, Woeful VMware Response</title>
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	<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/</link>
	<description>The Art and Science of Virtual Infrastructure</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 20:46:02 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Rob Upham</title>
		<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/comment-page-1/#comment-881</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Upham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vinternals.com/?p=435#comment-881</guid>
		<description>@Thomas - you&#039;re correct. VH7 presents disk devices as SAN devices, in order to be fully compliant with MSCS clusters, etc.
Windows 2008 Enterprise and Datacenter default to leaving SAN disks offline, whereas all other editions online them.

See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb525577%28VS.85%29.aspx

It&#039;s worth noting that VMware/ESX presents itself identically to all editions of W2008 and is not aware of which version of the OS is running on it. As such, any issues such as this where different behaviour is experienced on different editions is always going to be due to the differences in the OS. As Stu mentioned, the code *base* is the same between editions, but the actual running code / settings (obviously) isn&#039;t.

VMware will be improving the documentation around this issue.

Disclaimer: I work for VMware, know Stu, and have worked on this case. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Thomas &#8211; you&#8217;re correct. VH7 presents disk devices as SAN devices, in order to be fully compliant with MSCS clusters, etc.<br />
Windows 2008 Enterprise and Datacenter default to leaving SAN disks offline, whereas all other editions online them.</p>
<p>See: <a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb525577%28VS.85%29.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb525577%28VS.85%29.aspx</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that VMware/ESX presents itself identically to all editions of W2008 and is not aware of which version of the OS is running on it. As such, any issues such as this where different behaviour is experienced on different editions is always going to be due to the differences in the OS. As Stu mentioned, the code *base* is the same between editions, but the actual running code / settings (obviously) isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>VMware will be improving the documentation around this issue.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: I work for VMware, know Stu, and have worked on this case. <img src='http://vinternals.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: stu</title>
		<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/comment-page-1/#comment-880</link>
		<dc:creator>stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vinternals.com/?p=435#comment-880</guid>
		<description>Yeh we&#039;re the same, even when you don&#039;t RAID the disks at all so it looks like 2 disks, you don&#039;t get the problem.

So I suspect you are indeed right in supposing it has something to do with the way the disks are presented to the guest, which will make this into an &quot;undocumented feature&quot; of Virtual Hardware 7 rather than a bug :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeh we&#8217;re the same, even when you don&#8217;t RAID the disks at all so it looks like 2 disks, you don&#8217;t get the problem.</p>
<p>So I suspect you are indeed right in supposing it has something to do with the way the disks are presented to the guest, which will make this into an &#8220;undocumented feature&#8221; of Virtual Hardware 7 rather than a bug <img src='http://vinternals.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Vuylsteke</title>
		<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/comment-page-1/#comment-879</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Vuylsteke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vinternals.com/?p=435#comment-879</guid>
		<description>Our &quot;typical&quot; physical installation are on HP blade servers with a smart array controller. With 2 or 3 partitons on the &quot;one and only mirror&quot; volume we haven&#039;t seen this aswell. But from the second you present a disk from an EVA array over a FC network the disk is offline.

I guess it has something to do with how the disks are enumerated or presented to the OS. So this behaviour depends on the (type of) array controller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our &#8220;typical&#8221; physical installation are on HP blade servers with a smart array controller. With 2 or 3 partitons on the &#8220;one and only mirror&#8221; volume we haven&#8217;t seen this aswell. But from the second you present a disk from an EVA array over a FC network the disk is offline.</p>
<p>I guess it has something to do with how the disks are enumerated or presented to the OS. So this behaviour depends on the (type of) array controller.</p>
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		<title>By: stu</title>
		<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/comment-page-1/#comment-878</link>
		<dc:creator>stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vinternals.com/?p=435#comment-878</guid>
		<description>Yes but if that was the case, then I should be able to replicate it on a physical server right? I can&#039;t. We&#039;ve tried several times to be sure, and we cannot replicate this on physical hardware.

You are right regarding the triviality of a workaround (which we have indeed implemented), care to share some more information how you know the codebase is not the same? Remember Microsoft was the first company I contacted about this on the same assumption, they don&#039;t treat calls from us lightly (the same as VMware don&#039;t) and they came back to us saying the codebase is the same. Depending on what VMware come back with, we may need to have a chat with Microsoft again.

I could see how this might be the default behaviour for adding disk to a running machine, but not for a clean install... as I said, we cannot reproduce this on physical, have you been able to?

And thx for the comments :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes but if that was the case, then I should be able to replicate it on a physical server right? I can&#8217;t. We&#8217;ve tried several times to be sure, and we cannot replicate this on physical hardware.</p>
<p>You are right regarding the triviality of a workaround (which we have indeed implemented), care to share some more information how you know the codebase is not the same? Remember Microsoft was the first company I contacted about this on the same assumption, they don&#8217;t treat calls from us lightly (the same as VMware don&#8217;t) and they came back to us saying the codebase is the same. Depending on what VMware come back with, we may need to have a chat with Microsoft again.</p>
<p>I could see how this might be the default behaviour for adding disk to a running machine, but not for a clean install&#8230; as I said, we cannot reproduce this on physical, have you been able to?</p>
<p>And thx for the comments <img src='http://vinternals.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: VM Hardware 7 and Additional Disks in Windows Server 2008 - blog.scottlowe.org - The weblog of an IT pro specializing in virtualization, storage, and servers</title>
		<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/comment-page-1/#comment-877</link>
		<dc:creator>VM Hardware 7 and Additional Disks in Windows Server 2008 - blog.scottlowe.org - The weblog of an IT pro specializing in virtualization, storage, and servers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vinternals.com/?p=435#comment-877</guid>
		<description>[...] over at vInternals posted an article a couple of days ago about a problem he encountered with VMware vSphere and Windows Server 2008. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] over at vInternals posted an article a couple of days ago about a problem he encountered with VMware vSphere and Windows Server 2008. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Vuylsteke</title>
		<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/comment-page-1/#comment-876</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Vuylsteke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vinternals.com/?p=435#comment-876</guid>
		<description>Sorry if I sounded harsh.

I do agree on the fact that using multiple vmdk&#039;s gives you more flexibliity and whatsoever, heck it&#039;s something I tell my customers as well.

If I read your post correct, you stated the problem only occurs on &quot;Windows Enterprise editions (2008)&quot;. Microsoft told you the install base is the same. Well it&#039;s not. 

I encountered this behaviour with &quot;unattended&quot; setups aswell. Even before there was anything like &quot;vSphere hardware&quot; out there. When you installed a Windows 2008 enterprise edition using the &quot;lsilogic&quot;, the second and other disks started offline aswell. You could try asking it at &quot;http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/&quot; perhaps they have an answer.

All I can say is: if you take a windows 2008 enterprise edition and add a second disk to it, it will be offline. It is not a VMware bug and it&#039;s not a microsoft bug. Microsoft intented it to be this way. As an entprise OS CAN be (which doesn&#039;t means it will be) part of a failover cluster, you do not want disks to be online immediately. Hence they probably made the decission for the Enterprise flavour to have additional disks offline.

If you perform a new install of a VM + OS, I can&#039;t see how this is a problem. Or it&#039;s a manual action to put the disks online, or just let it be part of you scripted rollout. Diskpart can take care of this just fine.

However If you do an &quot;virtual hardware&quot; upgrade, then I guess this can be pretty annoying.  What happens if you upgrade from hardware version to version 7? Does it actually use the lsi sas controller then? If that&#039;s the case, i&#039;m not surprised this happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry if I sounded harsh.</p>
<p>I do agree on the fact that using multiple vmdk&#8217;s gives you more flexibliity and whatsoever, heck it&#8217;s something I tell my customers as well.</p>
<p>If I read your post correct, you stated the problem only occurs on &#8220;Windows Enterprise editions (2008)&#8221;. Microsoft told you the install base is the same. Well it&#8217;s not. </p>
<p>I encountered this behaviour with &#8220;unattended&#8221; setups aswell. Even before there was anything like &#8220;vSphere hardware&#8221; out there. When you installed a Windows 2008 enterprise edition using the &#8220;lsilogic&#8221;, the second and other disks started offline aswell. You could try asking it at &#8220;http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/&#8221; perhaps they have an answer.</p>
<p>All I can say is: if you take a windows 2008 enterprise edition and add a second disk to it, it will be offline. It is not a VMware bug and it&#8217;s not a microsoft bug. Microsoft intented it to be this way. As an entprise OS CAN be (which doesn&#8217;t means it will be) part of a failover cluster, you do not want disks to be online immediately. Hence they probably made the decission for the Enterprise flavour to have additional disks offline.</p>
<p>If you perform a new install of a VM + OS, I can&#8217;t see how this is a problem. Or it&#8217;s a manual action to put the disks online, or just let it be part of you scripted rollout. Diskpart can take care of this just fine.</p>
<p>However If you do an &#8220;virtual hardware&#8221; upgrade, then I guess this can be pretty annoying.  What happens if you upgrade from hardware version to version 7? Does it actually use the lsi sas controller then? If that&#8217;s the case, i&#8217;m not surprised this happens.</p>
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		<title>By: stu</title>
		<link>http://vinternals.com/2009/10/virtual-hardware-7-bug-woeful-vmware-response/comment-page-1/#comment-875</link>
		<dc:creator>stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vinternals.com/?p=435#comment-875</guid>
		<description>Perhaps you should read posts a bit more carefully before commenting... I&#039;m not talking about clustering or adding a new disk to an existing VM, I&#039;m talking about creating a new VM from scratch with 2 virtual disks. It has nothing to do with clustering, and everything to do with the good design principle of separating the OS volume from application / data volumes. By using 2 .vmdk&#039;s rather than partitioning a single .vmdk, you can make the data volume an independent disk and thus use snapshots against your OS volume only (if you choose to), and also if you run out of space on the OS volume you can simply grow the virtual disk and then extend the system partition (which you can do online in 2008, using native Windows tools).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps you should read posts a bit more carefully before commenting&#8230; I&#8217;m not talking about clustering or adding a new disk to an existing VM, I&#8217;m talking about creating a new VM from scratch with 2 virtual disks. It has nothing to do with clustering, and everything to do with the good design principle of separating the OS volume from application / data volumes. By using 2 .vmdk&#8217;s rather than partitioning a single .vmdk, you can make the data volume an independent disk and thus use snapshots against your OS volume only (if you choose to), and also if you run out of space on the OS volume you can simply grow the virtual disk and then extend the system partition (which you can do online in 2008, using native Windows tools).</p>
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